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DIGCREATION

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On Israel/Palestine (with Poll)

Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:38 AM EST
politics, money, israel, war, government, palestine, peace
By digcreation
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Prelude:

Before getting into what is sure to be a contentious article, I wanted to offer insight into my perspective on this subject, rather than leaving it open for speculation.

I am a secular American Jew.  Which is to say I don't believe in Judaism, or any other religion. However, I was raised in the Reform Jewish subculture, Bar Mitzvah and all, so that is an indelible part of who I am. It would probably be more accurate to call the culture Hebrew, as Judaism is the religion of the Hebrews, but nobody uses that terminology anymore. Being raised in this culture means that I was indoctrinated in the morality of the Torah (old Testament to the Christians), and the idea that Israel is the "Promised Land".  As a Reform Jew, I was also taught to question everything I was taught, which is how I ended up Secular. I view my connection to Israel in the same way I view my connection to my Russian and Hungarian heritage; who I am has roots in these communities, but I am no more an Israeli than I am a Russian or a Hungarian. I am an American Citizen, that is my culture, and that is my nationality.

I'm a political nerd. I pay attention to national and international politics and get into debates for no reason other than it interests me. Most of my life I have been able to support Israel, and our alliance with them, without much of a quandary.  That has become more difficult in recent years with the policies of the Netanyahu administration involving colonizing the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the embargo of Gaza. However rational discussion on the topic seems near impossible as neither side will accept critique, admit faults, or recognize the valid arguments of the other. Any discussions which do take place usually devolve into nonsensical ethnic grandstanding which are irrelevant to the questions of sovereignty and peace. 

Live Poll

The source of the problem is___

View Results
  • 176503
    Religion
    25%
  • 176504
    Foriegn Money
    0%
  • 176505
    Corrupt leaders on both sides
    0%
  • 176506
    Israelis
    38%
  • 176507
    Palestinians
    16%
  • 176508
    all of the above
    22%
  • 176509
    none of the above
    0%

VoteTotal Votes: 64

This is the motive for this article, to set a stage for more rational discussion. However small and unlikely my affect may be, it seems worth the effort. The next great world conflict is brewing in the middle east, and the excuses focus around Israel/Palestine, Israel/Iran, The US/Iran, Russia-Syria/the new Arab League, and the un-calculated influence of Turkey. Yet we can not have a rational conversation about most of these ignition points.

Right to Exist

Much discussion is made over the right of Israel and Palestine, each, to exist as nations. These conversations are consumed with irrelevant information.

It is taught, in the Jewish community, that the deal between Moses and God, made on Mt. Sinai, was that in exchange for providing the Hebrews with laws, protection and land, they would become an example to to the world of what happens when you do and do not follow God's law; "A Light unto the Nations". (This definition of "The Chosen People" took some serious mental gymnastics to reconcile with the Holocaust.)   The land portion of that deal is where the idea of the "Promised Land" originates, claiming that God ordered them to conquer and take Canaan. (1)

This may be useful for teaching Israeli children to have pride in their heritage, but it is irrelevant to international law.

The connection of the Hebrew tribes to the land called Israel can be demonstrated through Roman historical documents (2) and, more recently, the Human Genome Project. (3) However neither of these, alone, provide justification for recognizing Israel as a nation.

This surface area now know as Israel and the Palestinian territories was held by foreign occupiers, continuously, dating back to the Romans. In the late 19th century it was held by the Ottoman Turks, and during the early 20th century those occupiers were the British Empire. Beginning in the late 19th century, Theodore Herzl (4) published books and plays urging Jews around the world to return to Israel and build a secular nation. This was the beginning of the Zionist movement. Zionism is nothing more and nothing less than the desire to build, support, and protect a Jewish Nation State on the land now called Israel, AKA Israeli patriotism. (Note: Israel is not a theocracy in the way the US is not an empire)

During WW2, the British Empire, conned both the Jews and Palestinians by promising them both the same land in exchange for their support.  Inevitably, they renegaded on their promises to both of them, as colonial governments have a habit of doing to their subjects. Which initiated guerrilla resistance movements in both camps (today they would be called terrorist cells). The resulting conflict caused the UN to intercede in 1948 and declare 3 new sovereign nations, Israel, Palestine, and the city-state of Jerusalem. (5)

The following day 5 Arab nations attacked these new nations, stating their goal was to leave only 1 nation behind; Palestine. When the war was over Israel had gained some territory, Jerusalem and the West Bank belonged to Jordan (who changed their name to Trans-Jordan) and Gaza belonged to Egypt. Palestine had lost the war to their allies, and Israel had survived. (6)

To my mind, this is where right to exist as a nation is established for Israel. The people living on a plot of land fought for independence, won it, were recognized by The international body, and then successfully defended that sovereignty.

The Palestinians are descendant of tribes that have lived in this region as long as anyone else. The first time they ever had a recognized nation when the Roman's changed the name of the region after the exile of the Jews.  The second was the UN declaration in 1948, and they have been an occupied people ever since. First by the Jordanians and Egyptians, and then by the Israelis who took the territory in the recurring wars. They were recognized in 1948 via the same methods and political circumstance as the Israelis. They have fought for independence ever since. Israel has been unable to force or convince them to submit to the authority of the Knesset. They have an identifiable culture and an elected government of their own. They have chosen the hardship of the fight for independence over the ease and comfort of surrender. They are an independent people desiring independent rule.

I believe this combination of factors legitimizes their right to a nation. As advocates of democracy and liberty, how can we not support their right to self determined sovereignty?

But, in truth, these arguments over who has the right to exist are pointless. Both of these peoples exist, they are not going away, and the only peaceful way to resolve this conflict is with an agreement both sides can accept. 

Criticisms

The following criticism of both sides are not just a list of things of which I disapprove. They are also the primary obstacles to peace.

Palestine:

The Palestinians target civilians in attacks that serve no strategic purpose other than disrupting the society with fear. (6) They use civilian women and children to launch these attacks. The fact this violates the rules of war is not the point. What kind of a person sends a civilian to kill a civilian without even an identifiable, practical goal to be achieved? How can anyone ally themselves with that sort of callous disregard for life?

Hamas has refused to buy energy from the Israelis because they don't like Israel. And political infighting prevents purchases from other sources. (7) Adding to the misfortune of their own people. There are other examples of Hamas and the PA making choices that were detrimental to their people's health and economy.  One has to wonder if they are incompetent or simply desirous of a desperate population because comfortable people are less likely to fight.

The codified desire for Israel's destruction makes a peace agreement impossible. In fact the Hamas Charter states that peace is unacceptable. (8) How does taking peace off the table serve the interests of the Palestinian people?

Israel:

The embargo of Gaza punishes children and innocents, and is disproportional to the damage Hamas has done, or is capable of doing. Nor does it stop rocket launches or bombings, which continue. The comparisons to the Nazi ghettos are hyperbolic, to be polite, but conditions in Gaza are unacceptable for the progenitors of western morality, and victims of western immorality, to be causing.  (9)

Call it settling, colonialism, or just pain theft, pushing Palestinians out of their homes and then moving Israelis in is unacceptable behavior. This practice has been escalating in the West Bank in recent years, and, honestly, I am offended that my government and mainstream media and Jewish community organizations have had no condemnations to make. Why would anyone make peace with someone who is currently violating them? (10)

In addition to being cruel and impediments to peace, these Israeli policies violate the most basic principal of Judaism, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow." (11)

Self-Interest

There is no scenario where the Palestinians defeat the Israelis in battle, unless that scenario includes self-annihilation as well. There is also no scenario where the Israelis can eradicate the Palestinians or annex all of their territory without descending into their longest and most costly war and losing most of their allies, including the US if they were to attempt genocide.  Continuation of the status quo means more suffering for the Palestinians and the Israeli's, both at home and in international politics.

Peace means improved health, stability and profit for both peoples. Polls show the majority of both peoples want a negotiated peace (12). Yet neither of their governments will budge on the issues most preventing the achievement of peace.

Both of these governments gain money and power due to the conflict. So, while it is in the self-interest of the people to have peace, it is in the self-interest of the governments to have war. And the bloodshed and suffering continues for no other reason than an unspoken, unintended, "conspiracy" of betrayal, in which codependent actors perpetuate a system that empowers them to protect the people from the suffering their anti-symbiosis creates.

Outside Influence

Parties from all over the world support either side of this conflict (13, 14). Individuals, organizations, and governments pouring in money and weapons, and supplies and political support to a cause in which they have no practical stake. There is no overwhelming strategic value to that piece of property. There are no special resources. Not even oil. The Mediterranean and the Suez would be just as accessible if this conflict had been settled one way or the other in 48 or 67. Our cold war policy in the Arab world would likely have remained the same as well, with all that implies. The wars between the Arab nations and Israel may have had to do with pride and influence, and some territorial power issues as well. But the continued efforts from outside to subsidize and perpetuate the conflict, have no rational or strategic value.

Religion. The influence of religion on the symbolic meaning of a city, actually just a couple of old structures in that city, has perpetuated this conflict.  It is the reason the Israelis wont part with or share Jerusalem, and the reason the Palestinians want it. It is the reason that American Christians and Persian Muslims are willing to get involved in a battle that has nothing to do with them. Because their religion says there is a sacred building that God has a particular interest in, in that city. And so the infidels who don't believe in quite the same god cannot possibly be allowed to live there in peace.

The Quartet, the US, Russia, EU and China, have laid out a 'roadmap for peace' which they undermine by subsidizing the warring parties. President Lincoln used to ship food and medical supplies to the south till General Grant convinced him it was prolonging the war. The war ended soon after that stopped. We tell the Israelis to stop building and the Palestinians to stop bombing, and then we, and the quartet, give them billions to perpetuate the status quo. 

This is because even the slightest mention of forcing the hand of one or both sides to concede to this demand or that immediately sparks passionate voices attacking the critic absent facts or reason. And the ears attached to those mouths are non-operational. So the lesson of arrogance and close mindedness contained in the story of Babel goes unlearned by the cultures who teach it, and our politicians find themselves backed into a corner where they cannot end a bad policy without risking policies they are more interested in.

In the early days of this conflict Russia was backing and training Syria and Egypt. Which is how the US became 'natural' allies of Israel at a time when McCarthy and Hoover were accusing every Jew they could find of being communists. The Cold War ended 21 years ago, as that situation became less serious for or country, the Israeli lobby became more powerful. (Very similar to the Cuba lobby situation) Now the internal political value of the alliance far out weighs the actual strategic value for our country.

The same situation, in reverse, exists for the parties backing Palestine. They backed the Palestinians as part of power plays involving exploiting cold war politics; keeping up the price of oil, distracting the Western Powers, keeping their sugar daddy feeling a need, etc. But now that they have sold their people on evil America and evil Zionists, they can't just turn around and make a deal with the devil for peace and profit. Especially for those like Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Yemen, Venezuela, etc. who predicated their ascension to power on fighting the evil US/Israel Imperium.  Even though the continued conflict is actually interfering with their economic and social progress by diverting resources and time into a conflict that serves no national interest, the personal interests of those in charge are best served by fanning the flames.

Most of the money the US spends on foreign aid goes to Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. A significant portion of that resulted from bribe money agreed to in order to get peace treaties signed. If there is no conflict, they might not receive that money anymore.

And the lesson of "We reap what we sow." goes unlearned by the cultures that teach it.

Conclusions

The obvious, rational, political solution is a three state solution, with Jerusalem as a city-state. But I don't see that happening because passion, not logic, rules the discussion. And corrupted self-interest, not civic duty, rules the governments.

The middle east contains the last theocracies on earth. In the place where theocracy began. Corrupted by money, power, and hypocrisy, neither the religions nor the governments can survive much more self-destructive behavior in the information age.  As it dies it flails about like a wounded beast, causing mayhem and destruction. When organized religion no longer influences governments and cultures, we shall have a more peaceful, stable world. But it will not go gently.

How to influence these societies, now, so that they are divorced from their religious passions, I do not know. But so long as sacred hearsay is considered more valuable than rational agreement, there will be war. Because self serving, corrupt leaders will use that passion to manipulate people into sacrificing themselves for an illusion of glory covering for organized crime.

Long term change for peace would require gaining leverage against corrupt governments. Only two things influence politicians, money and exposure. It seems unlikely the battle lines are going to change on the money. The peace movement would have to take up the mission of exposing to the public both governments' actions to impede peace. It must be focused on both governments, or the message will be perceived within the battle lines and achieve nothing. And it must be about how their actions are counter productive to peace, and therefore the people, while they personally benefit. A sustained campaign dedicated to demonstrating the best interests of both peoples are aligned with peace, will have the effect of motivating change.

If you have access to the soap box. And in the information age, that is not such a difficult thing.

"Free your mind, and your ass will follow."

- George Clinton

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Published to:

  • digcreation's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Anti-War, Free Thinkers, Heated Debate, Israel Talk, Modern Philosophy, Newsvine HONOR Vine, Outraged Americans For Justice, The Truth Network, ZionVine
  • Regions: Egypt , Israel , Palestinian State
  • Public Discussion (49)
digcreation

coh please

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:31 PM EST
krishna-167929

Interesting article, digcreation! :-)

You've really covered a lot-- and with a lot of detail!

I would like to add some information to clear up some common misconceptions re the "blockade" of Gaza:

1. Some people believe it was all being done by Israel alone. The fact is, Gaza has borders with both Israel and Egypt. Even if the Israeli border was sealed air-tight (it isn't), there could be no blockade without Egyptian cooperation. The fact is-- it was not an Israeli blockade-- it a joint Israeli-Egyptian blockade.

2. Many westerners falsely believe its been going on for a long, long time. Not true.

I was a tourist in Cairo a few years ago, and planning on going to Tel Aviv. I was thinking of taking a bus to do some sight-seeing (especially in Gaza) along the way. I got some Gaza tourism brochures from Cook's and a few other travel agencies-- at the time tourism went in and out of Gaza from both Israel and Egypt. There was no blockade.

In fact, many Gazans crossed into Israel every day to work for higher wages, returning every night,

The Egyptian-Israeli blockade has only been in place very recently-- since Hamas took over (illegally) -- it actually only started in 2007. And it was put in place by both countries for good reason.

3. Some propagandists claim Gaza ia a "concentration camp". Hardly. In fact, the standard of living is higher than is several other Arab countries. (Btw, its higher than it is just across the border in Egypt-- Egyptian women sometimes try to sneak into Gaza to find husbands-- because there's a lot more money there, and many gazan men are fairly well to do compared to Egyptians.)

4. While the Egyptian side the blockade was fairly tight, the Egyptian border has been opened since the over throw of Mubarak. The blockade on the Israeli side now only partial-- lots of trucks move in and out with supplies daily.

  • 10 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:43 AM EST
digcreation

thank you for the added data.

re: living conditions, being less poor than the people who revolted they were so poor, not exactly a high bar.

I wonder if egypt did not have a western pawn for dictator, would they have supported the blockade?

the truth if what you say does serve to enlighten, but I don't believe it changes anything significantly in my conclusions.

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:43 PM EST
krishna-167929

I wonder if egypt did not have a western pawn for dictator, would they have supported the blockade?

Well-- no need to wonder! Mubarak has been out of power for-- how long now? Is it a year already?

  • 6 votes
#2.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:27 PM EST
digcreation

yes but revolution isn't the only other possibility. What if Sadat had never been assassinated? or elections had been held. I was postulating alternate history. would the US still have been able to influence them? we'll never know. ust an idle thought.

  • 3 votes
#2.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:37 PM EST
krishna-167929

yes but revolution isn't the only other possibility. What if Sadat had never been assassinated? or elections had been held. I was postulating alternate history. would the US still have been able to influence them? we'll never know. ust an idle thought.

Yes-- interesting to speculate. Sadat was a great man-- if he lived, it would've changed the course of history. (Unless, of course, the Islamists would have come to power anyway).

  • 8 votes
#2.4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:06 PM EST
Reply
larrrs

Why is it that Palestinians have refused over and over again a nation of their own, when they have had chances?

  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:22 PM EST
digcreation

Because of the reasons I listed in the article. Those governing Palestine would lose the status quo power structure they enjoy (the leaders not the people)

the same reason the Israelis killed Barak for offering a reasonable deal.

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:29 PM EST
larrrs

Those governing Palestine would lose the status quo power structure they enjoy (the leaders not the people)

If the People want a nation of their own they must first have a government of their own. You suggest that the Palestinian government doesn't represent their citizens. This being the case does not lend itself to any chance of gaining statehood.

the same reason the Israelis killed Barak for offering a reasonable deal.

But wait a second, the Palestinians are still being made offers that they reject.

  • 5 votes
#3.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:14 AM EST
digcreation

an offer to give up your homes is not an offer

  • 2 votes
#3.3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:46 PM EST
Reply
sugarmae

I'm not aware there was a reasonable deal from Barak.

I think why Egypt helped Israel with the blockade was that it was in their best interest. Not having a blockade would have escalated tensions. Any threat of a nuclear explosion in Israel, lobbed by Iran would impact them. Any siding with the Iranians is more hurtful to Egypt and Syria in light of that. Iran is not close, Egypt and Syria are, for fallout. That risk stands. Still, now that the muslim brotherhood has taken over, there seems to not be this concern. I assert that the muslim brotherhood doesn't give a hoot about their people, or the threat of nuclear fallout on them. There is no making deals with the unreasonable when they continue to express annihilation of Israel, and the catastrophe that would visit upon their own people and land.

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:48 AM EST
digcreation

Ehud Barak offered Arafat most of what he wanted, including parts of east Jerusalem, at camp David. that was one of the deals Larrrs was referring to.

Mubarak supported the blockade/embargo because (IMO) he didn't want an elected Islamic extremist group to grow powerful right next door, because it threatened his power. Hamas is associated with the Muslim Brotherhood. It says so in their charter.

yes, there is no making deals with the unreasonable. whether it be Palestinians launching terrorist attacks or Israelis stealing land. Both claim god told them to, and both are criminal.

  • 3 votes
#4.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:55 AM EST
krishna-167929

I think why Egypt helped Israel with the blockade was that it was in their best interest.

Well, just about everything every country does is in their self interest (or perceived self interest). But that was especially true of the blockade.

Mubarak supported the blockade/embargo because (IMO) he didn't want an elected Islamic extremist group to grow powerful right next door, because it threatened his power. Hamas is associated with the Muslim Brotherhood. It says so in their charter.

Yes-- that's exactly why.

Btw, in case anyone missed it, here's an excellent NV article about the Hamas Charter-- it really clears up a lot of confusion about it:

We hear about the Hamas Charter quite often... but we only see an occasional extract from it. I though it might be useful to post the whole document: The Hamas Charter

It is a tough read, but worth it! I understand that florid language is part of Arab culture... but still! There are bits that are hard to believe, like Article 19, line 4:

All this is utterly serious and no jest, for those who are fighters do not jest.

Here are a few extracts that I found significant:

(READ IT ALL)

  • 4 votes
#4.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:14 AM EST
krishna-167929

yes, there is no making deals with the unreasonable. whether it be Palestinians launching terrorist attacks or Israelis stealing land. Both claim god told them to, and both are criminal.

While its true there are religious extremists who use their holy books as justification for wanting more land, etc, that was not he motivation of the early Zionists-- many of whom were leftists-- including democratic Communist-- i.e. Atheists.

  • 3 votes
#4.3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:16 AM EST
larrrs

While there are religious Zionist, and there may even be some ultra-conservatives that are as well, Zionism has been and still is secular. There are actually many orthodox Israeli Jews who protest against Zionism.

  • 2 votes
#4.4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:48 PM EST
digcreation

early zionists didn't steal land. nor is that argument relevant today.

Today the Israelis are pushing people off land and out of homes, and then moving in.

and they justify it by every terrorist attack the Palestinians make.

who justify their attacks by every land grab that is made.

and the people suffer, and the governments prosper.

  • 3 votes
#4.5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:51 PM EST
Reply
Socrates1

An interesting article, but I admit I may have missed the point.

I will say that I presently support Israel, even if I wonder whether I would have back in the '40's. When one considers the fact that only the elimination of Israel will satisfy the most vocal Palestinians, and, obviously, that's not an idea Israeli's are likely to agree to, there is only one solution. Convince the Palestinians, and their supporters, to come up with another scenario which will satisfy them.

btw..I know we are "group members", but I thought I'd mention I came from a clipping on Krishna's page.

  • 2 votes
#5 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:53 PM EST
digcreation

the point is that supporting one side or the other is pointless to the peace effort. That history and philosophical claims to rights are irrelevant to the peace effort. That peace fails to advance because we discuss these irrelevances rather than the future, while both sides commit acts which further the conflict. And both sides are able to maintain the conflict due to outside influence which only cares b/c of religion. and if we wish to further peace (as everyone claims) we must address the situation from an objective view.

I;m glad you joined the group, but I;m not sure why you are pointing that out. My first group, was I supposed to do something as group leader I didn't do?

  • 1 vote
#5.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:03 AM EST
Socrates1

`The problem I find with the analysis is that "both sides are at fault" doesn't really help either. As I mentioned, when one side wants to annihilate the other that would seem to be a deal breaker.

on the group thing..probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

1. I was essentially apologizing because it's where I should have seen it.

2. Gave Krishna credit for bringing me here.

3. Neither of which, in the greater scheme of things, really matter, thus the first sentence.

  • 3 votes
#5.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:12 AM EST
digcreation

I agree, as I said in the article. Also stealing peoples land tends to be a deal breaker.

now, in typical conversations about this subject, If you present one or the other, it becomes a conversation about why or why not that behavior is acceptable in these circumstances. Or what the other guy did to provoke it. Which is irrelevant. The goal is to end all of the violence.

So we either discuss the situation as a whole, or continue wasting time spitting vitriol while people keeping dying and no progress is made.

  • 2 votes
#5.3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:17 AM EST
Socrates1

I agree......with the inevitable "but"....The Palestinians are the only ones who can move the process forward...once again, Israel is not going to accept complete annihilation.

I can make what I consider to be some good points, but apparently you're suggesting such comments are irrelevant at best, and counter productive at worst.

  • 1 vote
#5.4 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:35 AM EST
digcreation

yeah, I will probably agree with most of what you say about the Palestinians, but I disagree they have to move forward alone. primarily because polls show both populations prefer the two state solution. Which means the policies of both governments are not in line with the will of the people. Which only leaves self interest. And that self-interest is being served by the money being provided from those outside the situation.

Both governments need to be motivated to change their policies. No matter how wrong the other side is, both sides need to change their behavior. Money and exposure are the only motivations politicians respond to.

holding only one side to the light just emboldens the other, and will not move the process forward.

  • 1 vote
#5.5 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:51 AM EST
Socrates1

Unfortunately, and I wish it wasn't so, we disagree.

In terms of the "two-state" solution, I'm not sure what you are suggesting is the hold up. As far as I know Israel has already endorsed the two-state solution...it's that pesky, we are going to wipe you off the face of the earth and we don't believe you have the right to exist, which seems to be getting in the way.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it as far as finding both parties equally culpable, and this has nothing to do with any religious theme whatsoever.

  • 3 votes
#5.6 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:15 AM EST
digcreation

do you think it is possible to persuade people to change their mind while the opposition is pushing them off their land?

    #5.7 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:11 PM EST
    Socrates1

    As in the Arabs, Iranians, Pakistanis, and Palestinians wishing to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Probably not.

    • 3 votes
    #5.8 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:00 PM EST
    digcreation

    what you are doing is exactly what I described in the article. the conversation goes nowhere because e very criticism is countered by a criticism of the other side.

    but no one will accept they are both true.

    if you both sides cannot accept the fact that both sides must give... there is no reason to even have a peace talk.

    • 1 vote
    #5.9 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:57 PM EST
    Socrates1

    I understand your point, but reject it, for the reasons outlined. There is no "acceptable" compromise when one side insists that the other side has no right to exist and that one inch of land is too much to "give" to Israel.

    This has nothing to do with which "side" I am on. It is an emphirical fact.

    • 3 votes
    #5.10 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:55 PM EST
    digcreation

    I agree, that must be changed. I agree. that's why I listed it in my criticisms of Palestine in the article.

    but the inability to see that israel is also committing inflexible policies is also a problem.

    and the people on the other side, they are just as blind to hearing criticism of palestine as you appear to be of Israel. and round and round it goes.

    it doesn't matter which set of policies you consider morally worse. the entire situation must change.

    • 2 votes
    #5.11 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:26 PM EST
    Socrates1

    but the inability to see that israel is also committing inflexible policies is also a problem.

    I disagree, for a couple of reasons.

    1. For my part, I haven't suggested that Israel has completely clean hands and thus I reject your suggestion that I have an "..inability......"

    2. By suggesting that they are on the same level, you are undercutting Israel's right to exist.

    it doesn't matter which set of policies you consider morally worse. the entire situation must change

    It has nothing to do with which is "morally worse", it has to do with the stated goal of one "participant" to completely annihilate the other participant.

    The positions are not of equal stature. Equal stature would be for each side to accept the existence of the other. This is not a "biased" view taken simply for the sake of expediency in some blind support of Israel. This is accepting the reality of the situation. If you say you want to kill me, regardless of the outcome of any negotiations, there will be no negotiations.

    • 1 vote
    #5.12 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:53 PM EST
    larrrs

    By suggesting that they are on the same level, you are undercutting Israel's right to exist.

    That is the point and well made Socrates1.

    • 3 votes
    #5.13 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:37 AM EST
    digcreation

    I suggest you reread the article. I addressed right to exist and I discussed the futility of back and forth accusations.

    they both have the right to exist, they both are preventing peace. and the criticisms of one side or the other, absent recognition of the other's rights and faults only perpetuates the battle.

    so you are in fact proving my point.

    • 1 vote
    #5.14 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:12 PM EST
    Socrates1

    Not really.

    You accept Israel's right to exist as a given, they don't

    • 2 votes
    #5.15 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:05 PM EST
    digcreation

    you are not taking part in the same conversation as I am. Please reread the article.

      #5.16 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:58 PM EST
      Socrates1

      I believe I am. We just seem to disagree.

      • 2 votes
      #5.17 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:15 AM EST
      digcreation

      you are making the argument I describe in the article one part of the problem. while I agree the critiques of the Palestinians are legit, that is only one facet of the issue. I am trying to step back and look at the situation as a whole. recognize that no one aspect is responsible for the whole.

      • 1 vote
      #5.18 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:08 AM EST
      larrrs

      Oh no Digcreation...

      ...you are not debating the topic at all!
      LOL!

      :~)

      • 1 vote
      #5.19 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:42 AM EST
      digcreation

      I am trying to change the nature of the debate from blame the other guy, to lets look at the whole situation.

      • 2 votes
      #5.20 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:53 PM EST
      Reply
      warrior wheatman

      @digcreation:
      Glad to see a Hebrew with your perspective. Want to laud several comments: "..And the lesson of "We reap what we sow." goes unlearned by the cultures that teach it." &
      "Free your mind, and your ass will follow."- George Clinton
      The next comment makes me squeamish: "President Lincoln used to ship food and medical supplies to the south till General Grant convinced him it was prolonging the war. The war ended soon after that stopped."

      The next comment is also questionable: "As advocates of democracy and liberty, how can we not support their right to self determined sovereignty?"; -- As long as democracy and liberty are not part of the platform of an accepted sovereign state. You would be fanning flames of sub-cultures everywhere.

      Lastly: "(Note: Israel is not a theocracy in the way the US is not an empire)". Not sure how to interpret this.
      While Hebrews everywhere might be invited, non-Hebrew citizens should have full equality - irrespective of maternal lineage.
      The debacles of church/state and 'right to return'(with compensation) will be major adjustments I concede.
      The root cause is a religious demand. Unless both (presumed) states accept the separation of church/state, no solution is at hand, and the UN will have to take a governing oversight of a mutual reign of Jerusalem.
      The 'NO right to exist' is but an emotional enflaming of a people against the wall, and should be part of their peace agreement.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#6 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:44 PM EST
      warrior wheatman

      Rereading your article (and I'm very impressed with your insight and perspective), I noted your use of Hebrew instead of Jewish when religion wasn't meant. For the longest time I was part of the ignorant crowd that didn't know the difference. You mention that Zionism was meant as a secular movement that turned into a Jewish homeland. I think that is where the problem started.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#7 - Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:11 PM EDT
      digcreation

      thank you.

      ou mention that Zionism was meant as a secular movement that turned into a Jewish homeland. I think that is where the problem started.

      a more accurate interpretation is that Zionism was a secular movement to establish a secular Jewish (Hebrew) state, which Israel is. (like us they have religious right trying to change that all the time)

      • 1 vote
      #7.1 - Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:29 PM EDT
      warrior wheatman

      a more accurate interpretation is that Zionism was a secular movement to establish a secular Jewish (Hebrew) state, which Israel is.

      Again you qualify secular Jewish with Hebrew. You thus do not have a secular Hebrew state. A secular Jewish state would be a theocracy in name only.

      Can you vouch for it not being a theocracy? ; It being a legally true democracy? Or are laws twisted against non-Jews?

        #7.2 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:09 AM EDT
        digcreation

        in the article I said Israel is not a theocracy in the way the US is not an empire. I thought that made my view clear. but allow me to elaborate.

        the US is an effective empire because we use the power of our military and economy to influence world events. But we are not actually an empire because we don't have subject nations, which tithe us and follow our laws.

        Israel is an effective theocracy because they an ethnicity, which is primarily bound by its common faith, is the founding and controlling voice. It is not an actual theocracy because they do not base law on literal interpretation of their holy text.

        as to discrimination, that is not native to theocracy. We have a democracy and still fail to eliminate discrimination.

        • 1 vote
        #7.3 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:18 PM EDT
        warrior wheatman

        Dig@7.3

        I owe you one. Grreat expanation, thanks.

          #7.4 - Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:23 AM EDT
          Reply
          Zero-

          Dig i have an opinion to venture and i want you to say ya or nay. simply put i dont thing its eithers fualt but the fualt of the British and the U.S. for getting involed in the first place would i be correct.

            Reply#8 - Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:33 PM EDT
            digcreation

            nay, that oversimplifies.

            the British colonial era created a lot of problems, but it had been centuries since the region controlled their own sovereignty.

            The Americans simply supported a democracy, a natural ally. especially during the cold war.

            which is not to absolve them responsibility, but full responsibility does not ay at their feet.

            ultimately the refusal to make reasonable accommodations in peace talks is the fault of the Israelis and the Palestinians, both.

            • 1 vote
            #8.1 - Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:04 PM EDT
            Zero-

            ok makes sence so al we and the British did was fuel the fire

            • 1 vote
            #8.2 - Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:51 PM EDT
            digcreation

            exactly, in fact one of the themes of the article is that we, and the arabs, are fueling the fire by continuing to fund the governments that perpetuate this as they continue to refuse to accept our demands.

            • 2 votes
            #8.3 - Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:54 PM EDT
            Zero-

            true on that. and i see your points

            • 1 vote
            #8.4 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:19 PM EDT
            digcreation

            thanks. :)

              #8.5 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:19 PM EDT
              Reply
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